LESLIE BENNETT: I'm very happy for you, Rue.
You're about to start a brand new chapter.
You've been clean for, like, two weeks, right?
RUE BENNETT: I've actually been really happy.
♪ Still don't know my name ♪
Every time I feel good, I think it'll last forever.
But it doesn't.
We're just reaching for something...
to make it all seem meaningful.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
JOSEPH CATALDO: Did you have some interaction
-with a Conrad Roy Junior? -Yes, I did.
CATALDO: And could you please describe that?
MARYCLARE FLYNN: Objection.
JUDGE MONIZ: Overruled.
I was-- I was-- I responded to an assault call, sir.
CATALDO: Okay. And what did you do when you arrived?
We attempted to find the person that had been assaulted.
CATALDO: Okay. And at some point in time, did you come into, um,
the physical presence of Conrad Roy III?
-I did. -CATALDO: Okay. And uh,
did you make any observations of him?
JUSTIN KING: Yes, his face was swollen red
and he had some uh, lacerations to his face.
CATALDO: Did you obtain a written statement from him?
KING: I did, yes.
♪ (MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪
I found myself um, at a home located on, uh, Perkins Lane.
CATALDO: And what did you do when you arrived
-at that location? -I interviewed a, uh,
an older male and a female.
CATALDO: Okay. And do you remember the older male's name?
Conrad Roy.
CATALDO: And did you ask him specifically what happened?
DENNIS TAVARES: Yes, I did.
Before concluding my investigation, uh,
a male party was subsequently placed under arrest.
CATALDO: And who was that male party that was--
The father.
-The one you were speaking to? -Correct.
CATALDO: And what was he arrested for?
Assault and battery domestic.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
Yeah. You know, you think at first
it's kind of embarrassing but you know what?
It doesn't really matter.
I know what happened that night with my son.
And I know, like, I was being a parent.
And I know things got out of control
and we both fought each other. (SCOFFS)
And, um...
and I'd do it again just-- just like that.
You know, sometimes, like,
you say it, you know, like-- My father always said,
"If you ever take a swing at me,
you're gonna, um,
you're gonna get it." (CHUCKLES) You know? It's like,
"You're gonna make sure you don't do that ever again."
And I just felt like I had to do the same thing.
♪ ("COME FIND ME" BY EMILE HAYNIE FEAT. LYKKE LI & ROMY PLAYS) ♪
♪ I fall ♪
♪ Deeper than ever ♪
♪ I call ♪
♪ Baby, come find me ♪
♪ I fall ♪
♪ Deeper than ever ♪
♪ I call ♪
♪ Baby, come find me ♪
♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪
REPORTER: Hard to describe the feeling
in the courtroom today.
Pretty much everyone on edge.
Now, the defense will present their case.
They've already called several witnesses this morning
and things will move forward in this landmark trial.
JESSE BARRON: You have to remember that
this case has two families
who were basically trying to do the same thing.
They both want a version of the story
in which it is not their fault.
The Roys are hoping for a version of the story
where the suicide of their son is Michelle's fault,
and that she was waiting for the moment
when she could pounce on this kid
and make him kill himself and get a bunch of sympathy.
And the Carters are hoping for a version of the story
where Michelle's actions are not her fault.
And that's what Peter Breggin was arguing.
-JUDGE MONIZ: Morning, Doctor. -Good morning, Your Honor.
Please raise your right hand.
In this matter before the court, you swear the testimony you're about to give
to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
-so help you God? -I do.
Thank you.
All right. Please take a seat, sir.
Make yourself nice and comfortable.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
I got a call out of the blue from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo.
What he said is, "Doc, we got this case
that we don't know what's going on
and we can't figure out...
Um... Give us a hand." (LAUGHS)
I was originally called in
to see whether Conrad Roy's medication
had made him suicidal.
He was on psychiatric drugs, antidepressants,
and if you look at the research on what the psych drugs do...
they can cause suicide.
I concluded it was a contributing factor
but not an overwhelming factor
because there were many other things impinging on Conrad.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
Conrad was reacting to a very unhappy,
angry, and at times, violent divorce. We know that.
The father charged the mother with assault.
There're all these things coming to bear on him.
Then I found out that Michelle was... on psychiatric drugs too.
And so, we have these two kids;
they're not star crossed, they're drug crossed.
When did Michelle Carter start, uh, consuming SSRIs?
She started Prozac (CLEARS THROAT)
on February 17, 2011, uh, ten milligrams.
And, uh, she was just a young girl then,
fourteen going on 15.
CATALDO: Okay, thank you.
BREGGIN: Prozac greatly increase the risk
of suicide in young people her age.
And she never should've been given Prozac
because she was bulimic,
and that would increase the power of Prozac over her.
And not long after her first exposure to Prozac,
she climbed up on a stool
and put a noose around her neck in her closet.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
Now at the same moment, Conrad Roy,
whom at that point she thought was a sweet boyfriend
without any serious problems,
was admitted to a psychiatric hospital
for a serious suicide attempt.
(DOG BARKING)
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
So now Michelle, who's a youngster
who's on Prozac at the time,
is dealing with this huge disclosure.
It's-- And he is saying "I'm not who you thought I was."
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: And furthermore, as announced to her
that voices are telling himself to kill himself tonight.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
Michelle becomes desperate.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
Conrad won't answer her.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
And she thinks he's killed himself.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
(SIRENS BLARING)
Conrad, at least four times, attempted suicide,
once nearly killing himself.
LYNN ROY: He overdosed on acetaminophen.
And the EMTs call me.
And, um, they ask, they're like,
"Well, he threw-- You know, threw up a lot.
Do you want, um, him to be seen?"
(SCOFFS) I said "Absolutely."
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
He almost needed a liver transplant at that time.
He said he would never do that again.
He said, "I-- I promise you
I will nev-- never do that again."
I said, "You know that if you died,
Mom...
would want to die too. You know that, right?"
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
CATALDO: And how is this relevant
to your clinical analysis of this case?
Well, it has to do with the...
effects of Conrad...
on what will eventually become
her idea taken from him
that he's going to kill himself,
and that all he cares about is doing it swiftly and quickly
and not botching it.
She's following his lead into a very dark place.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BREGGIN: Probably the most common
adverse effect of antidepressants is nightmares.
So, this is just spot on.
She's clearly out of her mind, and so is he.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
CATALDO: You can't look at one text message.
You have to look at the totality of their relationship.
You have somebody, Conrad Roy,
who has been suicidal for a very long time,
really, at this point in time, intent on killing himself.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
She, if you look at her for a year and a half,
never wanted him to die. Didn't want him to kill himself.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
What caused her to switch?
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: It struck me
that she was in an extremely abusive relationship.
There's this constant harassing of her
while he's not telling family.
And at one point toward the end,
-Conrad tells her... -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: "The one thing that will make me hate you
is if you tell anyone that I'm suicidal."
-And she listens. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: Michelle got it all.
There's this huge pyramid of his misery
and at the bottom of it is sitting Michelle Carter
and nobody else.
Conrad told Michelle that his mother knew
that he was suicidal.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
CATALDO: He actually screenshotted her, Michelle,
his laptop, of methods how to kill yourself.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
CATALDO: Michelle says, "Well, didn't she say anything to you?"
And Conrad responded, "No,
she just looked at it and walked away."
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
What Conrad is doing is manipulating
and lying to Michelle, saying, "My mom even knows."
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
The whole story became deeper,
and the theme was running the exact opposite
of the DA's witch hunt.
In fact, both were victims of the psychiatric drugs.
CATALDO: What is a involuntary intoxication?
Well, by definition it's an intoxication,
which means that
the neurochemistry of the brain has been disrupted.
And that this intoxication is observable
through thoughts, behaviors, activities.
They involve, in general, things like impulsivity,
impaired judgment...
CATALDO: And specifically, Dr. Breggin,
as to Michelle Carter, did you have an opinion
of whether or not she was involuntarily intoxicated?
BREGGIN: Yes.
And what is that opinion?
BREGGIN: She was involuntarily intoxicated.
She was taking Prozac and she then switched to Celexa.
CATALDO: And are you able to, uh, pinpoint
about when she became involuntarily intoxicated?
Yes, on July 2nd,
she begins to help him go to heaven.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
At this point, she has an involuntary intoxication
where she's not forming a criminal intent,
"I'm gonna harm him."
She's not doing something she thinks is criminal,
"This is bad."
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: She's thinking
that it's a good thing to help him die.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: That she can mitigate the circumstances.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: That she can then go and help his family.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
And like anybody who's in a hypomanic state,
she gets very angry when she's disrupted.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BREGGIN: This is now the way.
She's found the way to finally help.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
DR. ANNE GLOWINSKI: Involuntary intoxication
is a diagnosis that I never use,
and that most of the colleagues that I know don't use.
But that is using forensic psychiatry.
So, without, you know, without, uh, any consensus
by our profession that it's even real.
In some children and adolescents taking antidepressants,
it can be disinhibiting.
I wouldn't call it drastic, you know?
But, uh, if you become manic when you're on antidepressant,
that's pretty drastic, you know,
and that happens in a very small proportion of cases.
You may resume when you are ready, Miss Rayburn.
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
-Uh, good morning, sir. -Morning.
KATIE RAYBURN: You would agree with me
at the time between July 2nd and July 12th, 2014,
the defendant was going to camp, correct?
-BREGGIN: Yes. -RAYBURN: Okay.
She was interacting with friends at times, correct?
-BREGGIN: Yes. -She's seeking therapy
and talking to her therapist,
-correct? -Yes.
RAYBURN: And you would agree with me
that the therapist describes her appearance as
good eye contact, well groomed, correct? Okay?
-Yeah. -RAYBURN: All right.
Short-term memory intact. Judgment good. Correct?
Mm-hmm.
RAYBURN: Behavior, no abnormalities, correct?
Yeah.
RAYBURN: Her affect is appropriate.
Her short, uh, long-term memory's intact,
-correct? -Yeah.
RAYBURN: Her insight is good.
-Correct? -Yeah.
RAYBURN: And you're now telling us
that she didn't know right from wrong
at that same time?
BREGGIN: Well, actually, she thought she was doing
absolutely the right thing.
RAYBURN: You would agree with me, though,
that on July 10th into July 11th 2014, uh,
the defendant is telling friends,
specifically Sam Boardman, that Conrad is missing,
-correct? -BREGGIN: Yes.
RAYBURN: But at the same time, you would agree with me
she's communicating with Conrad?
BREGGIN: Yes.
She's telling people he's missing,
she doesn't know where he is.
She's getting updates from the family.
All while speaking to him, correct?
Yes. It's very strange. I can't find a rational reason
why she would ever have been doing this.
I think it's part of a very confused, delusional state
that-- Where she's coming in and out of, uh,
"What's happening? What am I doing?"
RAYBURN: How about the rational reason
that she wanted to know how her friends would react
when he killed himself?
No. I can't imagine that would be motivating her
to be opening up this horrible, bizarre activity
she's involved in. I...
I mean, you would expect her
not to do anything like that. (CHUCKLES)
RAYBURN: But she's saying she's concerned for him,
while at the same time talking to him.
Yeah. I think it's really crazy.
And in fact, Sam does, I would suggest to you,
she then shows concern. Correct?
-Well, of course, yeah. -RAYBURN: Okay.
Focusing now on July 12th into the 13th. 9:48 PM.
To Sam: "I'm so fucking stupid.
The generator he got the other day...
I think that he-- the noise I heard...
I just looked it up; they emit carbon monoxide.
I think he poisoned himself with it."
And so it goes, correct?
-That's actually a question. -BREGGIN: Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Now, you would agree with me, sir,
that there were text messages between the defendant
and Conrad Roy about exactly how he was gonna kill himself,
-weren't there? -Yeah. Absolutely.
Okay. So, her telling Sam,
"I think the noise that I heard, uh, I looked--
I think the generator he got today,
I think that was the noise I heard. I looked it up.
They can emit carbon monoxide."
She already knew that, didn't she?
-BREGGIN: Yes. -Okay.
And now talking to Ally, she says, "Ha, ha, yeah.
But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now,"
talking to Con-- about Conrad, correct?
BREGGIN: Yes.
RAYBURN: She's telling Ally he's in a bad place.
He's dead, sir, at that point.
Did you factor that in your opinion then?
The fact that she knows he's dead,
and in saying, "Ha, ha yeah.
But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now."
Did you factor that into your opinion?
Yes, I factored every--
every bit of this into my opinion, yes.
RAYBURN: So, she's telling one person one thing
and other people other things, correct?
BREGGIN: Yes, she is.
RAYBURN: So now, the next morning,
July 13th, 2014 at 9:02, her mother texts her, correct?
BREGGIN: Yes.
"Hi, Michelle. What are you doing?" Right?
Michelle responds, "I'm at home."
Mom says, "Doing what?"
Michelle responds, "Nothing, ha, ha."
Doesn't tell her mother anything about what's going on,
-does she? -BREGGIN: No.
RAYBURN: She only tells her friends,
-correct? -BREGGIN: Yes.
RAYBURN: These same friends that she has been asking
to hang out with her for the past year
and who routinely don't hang out with her.
Isn't that true?
Oh, I don't know that.
RAYBURN: Would you factor it into your opinion,
the fact that these-- the defendant wanted to hang out
with her friends and her friends didn't have time with her
that summer? Could that impact your opinion?
BREGGIN: That it turned her into a crazy person
who transformed her character,
-became grandiose... -No.
...and encouraged a young man whom she loved
and had been working with a-- again and again to--
to get better, that she turned on him
and started to encourage him to die?
No, I don't think so.
She's psychotic, deluded. She's disturbed.
Everything you're describing is why I concluded
she's got an involuntary intoxication.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
CAMERAMAN: All right, just coming in.
-You ready? -Yep.
NEWS ANCHOR: So far this morning we've been hearing from
Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints a very different picture
than what we saw last week in those messages.
And the biggest question here now
is will Michelle Carter testify?
Are you gonna call Michelle to the stand tomorrow?
Uh. I have no comment. We're going to proceed tomorrow
with the continuation of the trial.
BARRON: Part of the drama of this case
was the adult world confronting what teenagers are like.
All right, guys. Can you stop? You've already got her picture.
And I think for the parents it must be sort of impossible
to understand what happened,
'cause it's so far from what is, you know,
acceptable human behavior,
what she did in the last few weeks.
And I think the biggest mystery of the story is not...
why Michelle Carter did what she did,
but what Michelle Carter thought she was doing.
JOHN SULER: What's really interesting about this case
is that we have this very detailed record
of what was said between them.
This detailed record of their minds coming together
and interacting with each other.
In the past we wouldn't have had that record.
All we would've had was a person commits suicide
and we're all left wondering what happened.
Are we talking about young psychopaths?
Are we talking about
narcissistic personality disorders,
borderline disorders?
Are we just talking about young, troubled kids
who don't have a well-developed frontal cortex
and just don't have the self-awareness
and the ability to see what they're doing?
But now because we have this record of this dialogue
between them, we have this opportunity to see
what was going on inside their minds,
inside that thought process between the two of them.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
BARRON: The idea that this was a case
where a girlfriend killed a boyfriend
is really weird.
The way that I read it is...
the relationship was much more Michelle's fantasy
and Michelle's idea than it was Conrad's.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: Conrad was alternately kind of mean to her,
kind of sweet to her...
kind of negging her for most of the relationship.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
They really weirdly connected
on this slightly mean,
slightly competitive level that they both had.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: They had this kind of game
-that they would play together. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: They would finish each other's sentences,
they would play weird word games
and free associations.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: And it's, like, kind of sexy, kind of weird,
kind of exciting if you're a teenage boy.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: They both sort of liked this kind of
brinkmanship with each other.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: They talked a lot about
"Let's meet, let's hang out. When are we going to hang out?"
They'd come to the brink of seeing each other
and then they'd always back away.
So, their whole relationship was the text messages.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS AND TYPING SOUNDS)
MARIN COGAN: The fact that we now all live our lives
via smart phones
is completely central to this case.
It's every parent's worst nightmare.
You have two teenagers connecting in the most
cataclysmic possible way.
Conrad, he found someone
who he could confide these thoughts in.
And Michelle found this access to immediate sort of intimacy.
(typing sounds)
SULER: When people are communicating through text,
strange things can start to happen.
You don't necessarily experience the other person
as another person.
You can't see them, you can't hear them,
you can't see their body language.
You have this voice with you all day long
that will suddenly pop up and say things to you.
I think in some ways people experience that
as a voice in their head,
almost as if it's like an internal hallucination.
You're really interacting with these characters
inside your mind without really understanding,
on a more conscious, rational level,
these text messages are coming from another person
with their own life and their own thoughts
and their own feelings.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: In some ways,
the big moral failing from Michelle
has to do with an eerie inability
to fully apprehend reality.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: There's one level of the conversation
that is a kid that's gonna kill himself.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: And then there's another level
that's a romantic fantasy.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: There is an amazing intensity to the messages
that's totally incommensurate with the relationship
-they had before. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: And what I found is that
there was all of these references
to different TV shows, to movies, to songs...
But by far, by far the most common source
for that kind of language was Glee.
Glee is a TV show that is set in an American high school
and the stars are Lea Michele and Cory Monteith,
who are not only the stars of the show
but were a couple in real life.
And Michelle was obsessed with Lea Michele.
So, often when she was writing to Conrad
or writing about Conrad,
she would borrow from text that was in this TV show.
You are my first love.
And I want more than anything for you to be my last.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
And I think she connected with Lea Michele
on kind of a profound level that went beyond
what a normal teen identifying with a star...
you know, might feel like.
A star of the popular show Glee found dead
in his hotel room in Vancouver. The body...
BARRON: In 2013, Cory Monteith overdosed in a hotel room
and died.
This was a year, basically, to the day,
before Conrad died.
The cast of Glee puts on a tribute episode.
(SINGING) ♪ When the rain is blowing in your face ♪
Lea Michele sings a song in his honor
and everyone's devastated
because the character has died in the show.
So, it's an incredibly eerie piece of television, because...
you know that this actual actor OD'd in a hotel
somewhere in Canada, but in the world of the show,
this football quarterback has died tragically
and everyone is singing pop songs to mourn him.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: And Michelle introduces that to Conrad
in October 2013.
Michelle says, "I just want you to know how much I love you
and it really made me think of what it would be like
if you weren't here."
Totally out of the blue from what was happening.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: It's sort of the first moment
where you realize that Michelle
has, like, a completely other story
that's going on that has nothing to do with Conrad specifically.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: But the idea that
she would be the person in Glee
who had a boyfriend who was the quarterback
who had sort of tragically died,
I think was kind of more real to her
than it probably is to most people.
I had it all planned out.
Now what?
I don't know, something different.
Maybe something better.
I just-- I don't think that that's possible.
He was my person.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: One of the eerie parts of the text messages
that Michelle sent to her friends
where she quotes from Lea Michele,
is that they don't all come from Glee;
they come from interviews that the real actress is giving
about her real dead boyfriend to real talk show hosts.
I literally lived every day of my life
feeling like the luckiest girl in the whole world.
I just-- I just thought he was the greatest man.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
This is weird. This is really weird.
BARRON: I think it translates to that Michelle
had little if any idea of who she was.
That she identified extremely strongly
with this other world, this other life.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: Alice was a teammate of Michelle's
on a travel softball team in the spring of 2012.
They instantly became incredibly close.
They went to, uh, each other's houses,
they slept over, they took a team trip to Montreal
and when other, uh, kids on the team
were going out to eat as a group,
they would kind of sneak off and eat together,
-just the two of them. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
It was an intense teen friendship
that was almost like a love affair for Michelle.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: Kind of abruptly,
right around the time that Michelle met Conrad,
Alice cut off contact with her.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
And in 2014, in the summer...
Michelle, for some reason, starts really missing Alice.
And this is all happening right around the time
that Conrad is really suicidal.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
BARRON: It seems to me that
a lot of the emotional logic of the case
really has more to do with the friendship with Alice
than it has to do with the relationship with Conrad.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: I called Alice and I said, you know,
"I want to interview you because it sounds like
Michelle was in love with you."
And I met Alice and her mother.
The reason they were meeting me
was to refute exactly that story.
So, they were meeting to say,
"Michelle is a sociopath,
and she made this all up. There was never
anything physical about the relationship."
And if I didn't feel for Michelle
in any moment before that,
in that moment I felt...
a sympathy for how alone she was.
She had this desire for things to be more intense,
more like stories than they really were.
She didn't live in reality;
like, she lived in some kind of fantasy... I think.
But she's just not a well person, so...
How can you be that angry or how can you be that...
when someone is not...
She's not well.
That's all I say. She's not well.
(CRICKETS CHIRPING)
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: The pattern that would happen
in the last few weeks of Conrad's life
is Conrad would say, "I'm gonna do it tonight."
Then the next morning he would be alive.
Then a few days later he would say,
"Okay, I'm ready to do it tonight.
I'm gonna do it," and then the next morning,
he would be alive.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: July 12th, when Conrad dies,
there's a kind of reality flicker,
where it's not entirely clear that it's actually happened.
(PHONE RINGING)
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
BARRON: I'll tell you something really weird.
Five days before Conrad died, Michelle goes to a movie theater
and sees The Fault in Our Stars.
And at the climax of the movie,
the boy, Gus,
is dying in a gas station in a Jeep.
And he calls his girlfriend for help.
Augustus.
GUS: Hazel Grace.
Hi. Oh, my God, hi. Hi. I love you.
BARRON: And she calls the police
and he gets into an ambulance.
So, it doesn't seem implausible to me
that there were other stories in Michelle's mind
that reminded her of what was happening at that moment.
And I think the question is whether or not
she was kind of writing some story in her head
or writing some movie that for some reason
had to end with him dying.
Or whether she literally has no idea what she's done.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: What is obvious to me is that when...
he really needed someone
to understand how serious it was,
and to go over his head to the cops, to his mother,
she wasn't that person.
And that's her kind of tragic failing.
She, who wanted so badly to have a best friend
or someone she could sort of have this intense,
dyadic affair with,
had the opportunity to do that
with this kid who that night needed someone
to be his friend and to say, "You are being fucking crazy
and I'm calling the police." And um...
she didn't do it.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
RAYBURN: "His death is my fault.
Like, honestly, I could've stopped him.
I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car
because it was working. And he got scared
and I fucking told him to get back in, Sam,
because I knew he would do it all over again the next day.
And I couldn't have him live that way,
the way he was living, anymore.
I couldn't do it. I wouldn't let him."
Those were her words, Your Honor.
She says to her friend, "If I had done something,
if I had just told him that I loved him,
he would still be alive."
CATALDO: Your Honor, this is a suicide,
as I said in my opening statement, and I say now.
What we're dealing with is a suicide and not a homicide.
And this is the government's burden
to prove that it was a homicide,
a manslaughter under the elements.
Proof, not by a probable cause,
not by clear and convincing evidence,
but proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
If you go through and you look at who actually created
this suicidal situation,
he brought her, with all of her baggage,
along for this sad journey of his
to eventually take his own life.
RAYBURN: Despite his issues,
Conrad Roy was a very self-aware young man.
He knew when he needed help.
You know what he said was the one reason
that he wanted to live? His family.
Before the defendant got her hooks into him
and started telling him to die every day, he was hopeful.
CATALDO: This is a gentleman who was sadly subjected
to domestic violence.
In fact, he tells that he had daily intrusive thoughts
of witnessing domestic violence.
Those are his words he's telling his therapist
in the counselors in the records, Your Honor.
RAYBURN: During the days leading up to this, Your Honor,
he told her, "I'm scared. I don't have it in me.
Another day wouldn't hurt."
Every time he came up with an excuse not to do it,
she kicked his feet out right from under him
and told him why it didn't matter,
why he still needed to die.
Mr. Roy himself stated to Michelle Carter,
"I want to die."
Straight up. Those words. "I want to die."
To turn around and say she's bullying him
or she got him to do something he didn't want to do,
he's asking her, "You want to help?"
His words. "You want to help?"
He doesn't tell her, "Stop this.
Don't call me, lose my number, stop texting me, block call,"
nothing of the like. He continues to use her
for his support to carry out his plan.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
CATALDO: He goes down to K-mart.
He doesn't do a U-turn. Not seeking any help.
Police department down the road a half a mile.
He has his cell phone with him. What's he do?
He actually-- In the phone records,
he calls Michelle Carter.
The first phone call right there, he calls her.
He doesn't call 911. Doesn't call anybody else,
he calls Michelle.
I suggest why? Because he knows
that she is encouraging and supporting his plan.
(PHONE RINGING)
RAYBURN: She created the harm, Your Honor,
when she told him to get back in the car.
(PHONE RINGING)
He was scared. She knows he's gonna die
and she says, "I could've done something to stop it,
and if I had he would still be alive today."
She-- By her own admission, she caused his death.
She knew at that moment he did not want to die.
The Commonwealth is conflating this idea of "he was scared"
as "he didn't want to do it."
That's what they're doing; they're saying he-- he told--
Michelle told a friend that Conrad got out of the car
and he was scared because it was working.
So, Conrad apparently knew it was working
and yet chose to get back in.
But because he was scared or afraid,
they want to basically replace that word,
that somehow, therefore, after that,
by going back in the car, that wasn't his own decision.
He chose to get in that car.
He chose to breathe in the fumes.
There's no evidence that Michelle Carter
has any physical actions whatsoever in this case.
It was all of his physical activity.
Did he get back in the car? Yes.
But she was the cause of that, Your Honor;
she ordered him back in that car
knowing what would happen.
It's a new day and age, Your Honor.
And the phones that we have now
allow you to be virtually present with somebody.
People fall in love on the Internet and via text.
People bully via text and the Internet.
And you can encourage someone to die via text
and you can commit a crime via text.
She absolutely knew what she was doing.
She absolutely knew it was wrong and she absolutely
caused the death of this 18-year-old boy.
And I ask you to find her guilty.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
This world is sick today, in my opinion.
No one has any morals.
Lack of character.
Uh. I just find it-- I just find it very troubling today.
Because the right thing to do would've been for her
to go get him help.
He wanted to get out of the car, I believe. He did get out.
She told him to get back in, quote, unquote, and do it.
I'm sorry but she-- she deserves manslaughter.
Absolutely.
I honestly think it was foul what she did.
She really shouldn't have done that.
I mean, if you really love somebody
you don't encourage them to kill themselves.
That's just-- That's absolutely crazy.
-It's kind of like murder. -So, it's--
it's basically murder, is how I see it in my eyes.
It's basically murder.
She was pretty much saying, "Just do it."
WOMAN: But there's nothing illegal about that.
And then-- And then didn't he stop,
and then she said, "What are you doing?
Get back in the car. You already have it all set up.
You know, just end it already."
WOMAN: Wow.
But that's more of a moral thing, I think.
But there's nothing illegal about it.
-No, there's actually nothing wrong with it. -No, no.
-She's not guilty. She didn't do anything illegal. -No. I wouldn't say that
-she didn't... -What she did was wrong,
-but it's not illegal. -That's like me telling you
to jump off a bridge. If you jump off it, is it my fault?
MAN: Yeah.
She would've said to him, "Jump-- Jump over the bridge."
He would've done it, so therefore it's--
it is her fault.
MAN: How can this woman be held responsible for something that
she in essence did not do
and he had free will over his actions?
It's mind boggling to me.
If she was telling him to rob a bank and he robbed a bank
is she responsible for this when he went in and--
and did those actions voluntarily? I-- I don't know.
I just don't see how you can, uh, punish this girl
the rest of her life for this.
My wife and I talk about this and, you know,
she thinks in one direction and I think in the other.
That's 'cause we're married, go figure.
She thinks it's more the responsibility of the victim
than the responsibility of the-- the young lady, you know?
Uh. And I can see her point.
I think it was more immoral or, uh, unethical, you know,
to not report that to somebody.
I don't know. I guess it's on the judge,
how he's gonna-- how he's gonna rule it.
Certainly wouldn't want to date her next. (CHUCKLES)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
MIKE MONTECALVO: Breaking news:
The judge has reached a verdict
in the Michelle Carter manslaughter trial.
NEWS ANCHOR: This is a highly anticipated decision
of whether Michelle Carter is guilty
of involuntary manslaughter in her boyfriend,
Conrad Roy's death.
OFFICER 1: Come on, get out of there.
-OFFICER 2: Come on. -OFFICER 1: Get out of there.
REPORTER: Judge Lawrence Moniz
took just two days to decide this.
He will announce it at 11:00 AM.
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING)
REPORTER 2: Michelle Carter's fate
now in the hands of the judge,
who will render the ultimate verdict.
REPORTER 3: And at the center of this trial,
whether it's a crime to tell someone to commit suicide.
Good afternoon, everyone.
COURTROOM OCCUPANTS: Good afternoon, Your Honor.
JUDGE MONIZ: The law does not require
that any explanation as to a verdict be given.
Nonetheless, (CLEARS THROAT) I am of the opinion
that some explanation of my verdicts is warranted.
I have essentially divided the evidence in this case
into three components.
The first component
comprises roughly the period of June 29th, 2014
through the ending of the text messages
between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy on or about July 12th, 2014.
The second period commences immediately thereafter,
through July 13th, 2014.
This court first finds
that the Commonwealth has proven
beyond a reasonable doubt
that the actions taken by Miss Carter
as to the period from June 30th to July 12th
constituted wanton and reckless conduct by her,
and serious disregard of the well-being of Mr. Roy.
The Commonwealth has not proven, as to that time period,
that said reckless or wanton behavior
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
Mr. Roy was struggling with his issues
and took significant actions of his own.
He secured the generator. He secured the water pump.
He researched how to fix the generator.
He located his vehicle in an unnoticeable area
and commenced his attempt by starting the pump.
However, he breaks that chain of self-causation
by exiting the vehicle.
He takes himself out of the toxic environment
that it has become.
When Miss Carter realizes that Mr. Roy has exited the truck,
she instructs him to get back into the truck,
which she has reason to know is or is becoming
a toxic environment inconsistent with human life.
This court finds where one's action
create a life-threatening risk to another,
there is a duty to take reasonable steps
to alleviate the risk.
The reckless failure to fulfill this duty
can result in a charge of manslaughter.
Knowing that Mr. Roy is in the truck,
knowing the condition of the truck,
Miss Carter takes no action
in the furtherance of the duty that she has created
by instructing Mr. Roy to get back into the truck.
Consequently, this court has found that the Commonwealth
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
that Miss Carter's actions and also her failure to act
where she had a self-created duty to Mr. Roy,
constituted each and all wanton and reckless conduct.
And this court further finds that the Commonwealth
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
that said conduct caused the death of Mr. Roy.
Miss Carter, please stand.
This court, having reviewed the evidence
and applied the law thereto,
now finds you guilty on the indictment charging you
with the involuntary manslaughter
of the person Conrad Roy III.
You may be seated.
That verdict is now recorded and it is in writing as well.
This matter will stand continued to August 3rd
for a sentencing hearing. Thank you very much.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
Very, very disappointed with the outcome,
however, because the case is still pending,
beyond saying I'm disappointed,
I'm not gonna comment any further, so, um,
thank you all.
REPORTER 1: Do you have an appeal plan?
REPORTER 2: Are you surprised though?
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING)
RAYBURN: Good afternoon.
Since we still have to return to court
for the sentencing phase of this case,
I will keep my comments brief.
Although we are very pleased with the verdict,
in reality, there are no winners here today.
Conrad, an 18-year-old boy, is dead,
and the young woman-- a young woman is now convicted
of causing his death.
Two families have been torn apart
and will be affected by this for years to come.
This was a unique case that dealt with
a lot of important issues in our society today.
But in the end, the case was really about
one young man and one young woman
who were brought together by tragic circumstances.
-(REPORTERS CLAMORING) -(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER, CLAMORING)
REPORTER 1: What do you want the sentence to be?
REPORTER 2: Are you satisfied with what happened though?
Do you feel like you get some relief?
REPORTER 3: Mr. Roy, what kind of relief
are you feeling right now?
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
-WOMAN: Come on. -Careful behind you.
Reporter 4: Would you like to say anything to the judge?
WOMAN: Justice for Conrad.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
REPORTER 5: Hey guys. tell us how you feel?
No comment.
WOMAN: Come on, get the door unlocked.
REPORTER 6: Can you tell us what you think
about this verdict?
Can you just tell us what you think about the verdict?
Do you feel like justice was served here?
WOMAN: Watch out. Excuse me.
There are many, uh, verdicts that you'll see,
whether I've been involved in them or, you know,
many cases that I haven't been involved, you'll say,
"Well, this prosecution really has the law on their side.
They have the facts on their side.
Uh, I don't think that that was the case here.
I think, you know, people--
There are plenty of people who are still
scratching their head, thinking, "How is this a crime?"
How could the judge do what he did
and find her guilty on this evidence?
In rendering his verdict, he went so far as to say
up until the point in time that Conrad was in the truck
with the water pump going, it was on Conrad Roy;
Michelle would not have been found guilty.
Then it turned on a dime and said, however,
when he got out of his truck, she had a self-created duty,
knowing that he was getting back into the car,
to prevent it when she wasn't physically present.
Um, that's when it obviously went downhill and that was, uh,
was somewhat of a surprise to hear him saying that.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
BARRON: The huge question at the heart of this case
is whether Michelle told Conrad to get back in the truck.
It's a big question because there's--
there's meta-data for the phone calls.
But there's no recordings.
So, there's absolutely no way to know whether
Michelle telling him to get back in the truck
was an event that took place, whether it was something
that she wanted people to think had happened.
Whether it was like a manifestation of her guilt.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
BARRON: Why did Michelle wait two months
to tell Samantha Boardman,
"I told him to get back in the truck"?
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
I don't think we can know that Michelle's story is at all true.
It's not-- I don't think it's a true story.
There's no text she said it.
There's no recording of a phone that she said it.
Michelle frequently made contradictory statements.
One of the most striking was that she told her friends
that she had never had sex.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
Then she told a friend that she had had sex with,
uh, Conrad.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
Then she told her friend that Conrad had raped her.
That he had forced himself on her.
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
What's scary about Michelle's description of being assaulted
is, uh, that her friends don't believe her.
That there's a sense that, like,
Michelle says some stuff that's true
and some stuff that's not true and everyone kind of knows it.
I didn't see the DA bringing that up and saying,
"Well, Michelle was raped by Conrad.
How do we know she was raped by Conrad?
She actually told somebody in a text."
The DA said again and again
she was a liar who couldn't be trusted
because the DA was obsessed with not making her sympathetic
without realizing she was undermining her own case.
But this is the constant twisting by the DA of data
so that it became impossible to disentangle.
Most of America believes that she
texted him this in writing.
NEWS ANCHOR: According to prosecutors,
Carter even texting him to get back in the truck
when he has second thoughts.
BREGGIN: And when I meet people in airports
and I'd say to them, uh,
"Hey folks, do you know about this--
this, uh, lady, uh, you know,
who supposedly told her boyfriend to kill himself?"
"Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She-- She texted her to death."
I said, "Would you believe
that there was never anything written down?
We have no written record."
"No, Doc."
And people get mad.
They say things like fake news again.
They we're just cherry picking when to believe Michelle
and when not to believe Michelle.
We are appealing the verdict,
and we'll appeal it for as long as it takes.
To now treat this juvenile
as, uh, somebody who committed a homicide,
I think is, uh, unfair, unjust and illegal,
and I think eventually the court system will see it.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
WOMAN: Here's Michelle coming in right now.
WOMAN IN CROWD:
MAN IN CROWD: Keep your head up. Love you, Michelle.
WOMAN IN CROWD:
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
MARYCLARE FLYNN: Your Honor, the Commonwealth is asking
this court to impose a sentence of not less than seven,
no more than 12 years in state prison.
Your Honor, as the evidence proved,
the facts in this case are egregious.
There is no earthly reason why Conrad Henri Roy
should not be here today with his loving family,
enjoying life,
sharing his many gifts with the world.
But he is not and the reason he is not here
is the defendant, Michelle Carter.
Her actions killed Conrad Roy.
She ended his life to better her own.
For all of these reasons, Your Honor,
the Commonwealth respectfully asks this court
to impose our recommendation. Thank you.
JUDGE MONIZ: Thank you, Miss Flynn.
Who speaks for the defendant?
Mr. Cataldo, do you have any evidence to present?
Um, Your Honor, I will summarize by saying,
as this court is well aware,
we're guided with the idea in the juvenile justice system
that the goal is not punitive but yet rehabilitative.
Miss Carter was 17 years old at the time.
We have a body of law from both the United States Supreme Court
as well as the SJC
about the adolescent brain development,
what a court can consider on sentencing.
And there is a clear body that says
adolescents are not as culpable as full-grown adults.
Miss Carter will have to live with the consequences of this
for the rest of her life,
with the publicity that this case has gained.
Um, that will be substantial.
Um, I think treatment is appropriate
in this particular case for Miss Carter.
Miss Carter does regret what happened.
She also sent a letter to the probation department
where she accepts responsibility for her actions, her words,
her letter. The court has reviewed all this.
Your Honor, I suggest that she is not a danger to the public
and in the remedial system, the juvenile system, uh,
probation is appropriate. Thank you very much, Your Honor.
JUDGE MONIZ: Thank you very much.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
COURT CLERK: This court is now in session.
Be seated please. No talking while court's in session.
JUDGE MONIZ: You need to understand, all of you,
that this court has not nor should it
allow any emotional response to this case to enter
into its determinations in any way.
Everyone is entitled to a decision devoid of any emotion
with respect to this case.
Now I know that there has been significant media coverage
of this case.
I assure you that I have steadfastly avoided
any of that.
But by the end of today people will wonder why
what has happened has happened.
People may wonder why all of this has happened.
I have not found
that Miss Carter's age or level of maturity
or even her mental illness
have any significant impact on her actions.
She was a bright young lady, did well in school,
and I am satisfied that she was mindful of the actions
for which she now stands convicted.
On the other hand,
even if the age and the maturity level
of the person at the time that they have committed the crime
doesn't gre-- doesn't garner a great deal of significance,
the fact that they are still of that young age
offers a greater promise of rehabilitation.
Miss Carter, please stand.
Miss Carter, a guilty finding having entered on the indictment
charging you with the involuntary manslaughter
of Conrad Roy III
now sentences you to two and a half years
in the Bristol County House of Correction.
Fifteen months of said sentence
shall be deemed a committed sentence
and the balance thereof shall be suspended
until August 1st of 2022.
That is the sentence of the court. You may be seated.
Mr. Cataldo, do you wish to be heard?
I do, Your Honor.
-May I approach? -JUDGE MONIZ: You may.
CATALDO: Your Honor, what I have just filed
is a motion to stay the execution of the sentence.
JUDGE MONIZ: All right, let me take a look at it please. CATALDO: Okay, thank you.
(INAUDIBLE)
JUDGE MONIZ: I guess we have all
come to know each other a little bit.
I anticipated this motion, Mr. Cataldo,
and I took some significant time
to review the case of Commonwealth versus Hodge.
which is found at 380 Mass 851.
The conviction may be reversible
but the time spent in prison is not.
I am satisfied that there is an issue worthy of presentation
to the appellate court. In fact, this court
believes that the wisdom of the appellate court
will be of instruction now and going forward.
I don't know what the appeals court will do.
I don't know if it goes to the SJC,
what the SJC will do.
But I am satisfied that a grant of a stay
through the Massachusetts court system only
is warranted.
This order will not encompass anything with respect
to the federal system.
Is there anything further, Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira?
One minute please.
(INAUDIBLE)
We're all set. Thank you.
JUDGE MONIZ: And we are adjourned.
Thank you very much.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
I don't understand how a month ago
it's a guilty verdict giving the family hope
that there might be some type of justice,
to just have her go home tonight and have a nice meal.
I just don't get it. Like I said,
it's saying to me... I don't have a law degree,
I don't have... But it saying as long I'm under 18,
I can bully anyone.
REPORTER: Are you pleased with the stay?
Very much so, yes. Yes.
BARRON: You have to remember,
people were totally split about this case.
So, the reason that it's so interesting to me,
the-- like, the difference between the conviction
and the sentencing,
is that it expresses the complete kind of craziness
that this case drives people to in terms of trying to come up
with, like, one objective conclusion
of what should happen to Michelle Carter.
REPORTER: If this appeal lingers to 2022,
conceivably she will never serve time in jail?
Conceivably, yes.
BARRON: It's like you were responsible,
it was involuntary manslaughter.
But you can basically never go to jail?
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
I would be surprised if she serves time.
JUDGE MONIZ: I have reviewed
the Commonwealth's motion
and have considered the arguments
just presented to the court.
The court now allows the Commonwealth's motion
to revoke the stay of sentence.
Miss Carter will now be taken into custody.
JUDGE MONIZ: This matter is adjourned.
Thank you very much.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(DOOR SLAMS)
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪